Open theism and doubt
I’m glad you found the place that fits your beliefs. Go of it!
Lots of people have doubts, some of them find a solution.
Thomas had doubts, it put him behind others, he could not experience God’s glory without a personal inspection. Doubt didn’t serve him well.
The 10 tribe leaders that came back to Moses from inspecting the promise land had doubts, it didn’t serve them well. Moses had to lead the people 40 years in the wilderness and every one of them died there. Doubt didn’t serve them well.
Abraham heard God, believed, and left his home not knowing where he was going – he didn’t doubt and it served him well.
Paul heard Jesus on the Damascus road, he didn’t doubt, and that served him well.
Ananias heard God say, ‘go heal Paul’, he didn’t doubt and it served him well.
The list goes on and on, each of the 12 followed Jesus when called, without doubt. The folks at the end of Hebrews11 followed Jesus through some tough times by faith, without doubt:
But others were tortured, refusing to turn from God in order to be set free. They placed their hope in a better life after the resurrection. Some were jeered at, and their backs were cut open with whips. Others were chained in prisons. Some died by stoning, some were sawed in half, [some were tested,] and others were killed with the sword. Some went about wearing skins of sheep and goats, destitute and oppressed and mistreated. They were too good for this world, wandering over deserts and mountains, hiding in caves and holes in the ground. All these people earned a good reputation because of their faith, yet none of them received all that God had promised. For God had something better in mind for us, so that they would not reach perfection without us. (Heb 11:35-40 NLT)
Doubt may be working for you now, good, go for it.
Doubt does not work well for me, and I have no intention of introducing it into my working relationship with my God.
5 comments:
Ray,
For this post I will not address the 'open theism' view since it is not relevant to the doubt/certainty topic. Since you have read the Phillip Yancey article after you posted this, I will assume we are on the same page about this.
Since doubt and faith are polar opposites, it would be helpful for me to define both of them first before I challenge your personal position on this.
FAITH-
:complete trust or confidence in someone or something. "you have faith
that you can trust in God to heal sickness with prayer, oil, and the
laying on of hands as he said."
:strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on
spiritual apprehension rather than proof. "you gave your life for your
faith."
: a system of religious belief. "you identify yourself as someone of the
Christian faith."
:a strongly held belief or theory. "your faith that Jesus will return some
day."
I copied the definitions from Google definitions- the quoted statements are my own.
Here is one more definition of faith from HEBREWS 11:1
'Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.' KJV
Based on the subsequent verses, the author of Hebrews lists Old Testament characters who obeyed God even though they could not see the final outcome- they trusted God's will and his providence even if they didn't receive what was promised. (Hebrews 11:13,39)
Some highlights of a few of the examples listed are proclaimed proudly by Christians today but are virtually unheard of unless using the examples of others,
but I wont get into them right now.
Now I will use a definition of 'doubt'.
DOUBT-
:a feeling of uncertainty or lack of conviction. "I doubt the Bible is
accurate in all of its details because we don't have an authentic text."
"you go to ungodly physicians because you lack conviction that God can
really be taken at his word."
Based upon our conversations it seems you tend to put a lot of emphasis on the importance of certainty when it comes to dealing with God, and that any type of doubt or questioning is considered sinful. I'm glad you're not God or I would be in a heap of trouble! I was raised that way as well, but as Yancey, Boyd, C.S Lewis, and numerous others describe we found that facing our doubts actually helps our faith rather than hinders it if we are searching for the truth and seeking God. It is also worth pointing out that I probably have more common beliefs with C.S Lewis than you have with him on many issues of doctrine. I will go through some of the main points that Yancey described since I think he did a good job of summarizing the points I have as well.
Yancey said that it was because of doubt that he became a Christian in the first place, by doubting some of the crazy things his Church taught him growing up. I agree with him here, however I also doubt much of the crazy things that I hear and read now by so-called professional theologians and Christians. Just because it is passed down from an authority figure does not make it true, and in many cases it is downright false or at the very least unreliable.
Yancey noted that as a child, his church left little room for inquisitiveness. Doubt or questioning equaled sin, and that not getting satisfactory answers caused bottled up doubt that resurfaced in toxic forms. What I (Kurt) get out of that is that it causes the one who thinks doubt is sin to become close minded, unteachable and downright deceptive. If the Bible says 20,000+20,000=5, rather than admitting an error had occurred, one must defend the indefensible and lie to themselves to defend the honor of their master. If their bank made that same error with their account, they wouldn't except that math for a second! Yancey said he came to the realization that the Bible was not as clear cut as religious propagandists made it out to be. This causes fear , and suppressed doubts that resurface in the form of deception, picking and choosing encouraging Bible passages while ignoring the difficult ones that contradict them.
He also said that faith, to a lot of religious types in not a relationship with a living God, but instead is relegated to an intellectual assent to a series of concepts.
This is akin to believing THAT the Bible says something, rather than believing what it says.
I would include a series of unsubstantiated beliefs about the origin of the Bible, assumptions that the Bible we have now is without error or forgeries (that even Christian scholars admit) and that there is a long list of contradictory theologies within the various books in our Bible today.
He goes on to say how Christians tend to be propagandists who want to convince others, put of a good face and inspire, but also ignore the Old Testament examples of where the many 'questioners of God are.' I can bring some examples up later if you think it is necessary. He describes Christians hiding behind a thin veneer of cheerfulness and health, while they secretly doubt. He notes something blatantly clear about today's Christians- about why the church doesn't look more like Jesus- that many people are content to live just like everyone else except on Sunday's where they put on uncomfortable clothes and sit in an uncomfortable seat for an hour- not the church Jesus came to establish!
These were some of the main points I wanted to cover. It seems that you are conflating two types of faith/doubt. What you don't claim to doubt is the Bible, or should I say you don't doubt your interpretation of it, and that is what you build your belief upon. What you don't have faith in and what you do doubt is the difficult commands of Jesus, Paul, James and the rest. Just a case in point- I will point out the James 5 (verses 14-16) passage when it comes to the divine prescription for healing. Others include selling at least most of your possessions, sharing the gospel to the lost, visiting the sick, (dying soon) those in prison,(lost)the homeless, etc. This is just the tip of the iceberg. I can list more later.
One last point about using the Bible as final standard of what is true- you asked me about this. What does it mean to say the Bible is true? Which theological viewpoint is true? Christians disagree. Zondervan book publisher lists over 30 books in their counterpoint series, each view (2 to six per book) all using the Bible to defend their position! With more coming out all the time as new problems come up that require a re-interpretation!
Here is a list of them-
Four Views on Baptism
Three views on the New Testament use of the Old Testament
Understanding Four Views on the Lords Supper
Four Views on Moving beyond the Bible to Theology
Three Views on Eastern Orthodoxy and Evangelism
Evaluating the Church Growth Movement: 5 View
Exploring the Worship Spectrum 6 views
How Jewish is Christianity ? 2 views
Who runs the Church? 4 views (Church Government)
Reemarriage after divorce in Todays Church 3 views
Two views on Women in Ministry
Four views on the Book of Revelation
Five views on Sanctification
Five views on Law and Gospel
Three views on Creation and Evolution
Show them no mercy: 4 views on God and Canaanite Genocide
Three views on the Rapture, Pretribulation, Prewrath, or Posttribulation
Four Views on the Spectrum of Evangelism
Four views on the Apostle Paul
Four Views on the Role of Works at the Final Judgment
Are Miraculous Gifts for today? 4 views
Four views on Eternal Security
Four views on Divine Providence
Four views on Christian Spirituality
Four views on Salvation in a Pluralistic World
Three views on the Millennium and Beyond
Four Views on Hell
Five views on Apologetics
Four views on the Historical Adam
Five views on Biblical Inerrancy
Genesis: History, Fiction or Neither- three views
Homosexuality the Bible and the Church- two views
What about the many forged , removed or tampered with verses? Who decides what is literal and what is symbolic? Who gets to pick the cherries? What Cherries do we pick and which ones do we leave on the tree? The truth of the Bible (if you read it plainly) is contradictory in many parts, quite ridiculous in other parts and demanding in others, and in some parts - are ridiculously demanding! Theologians have grappled with these problems for 2000 years and the problems still continue to grow continually, hence the concept of DOUBT. Each proponent of their own view doubts the validity of another view if the think it doesn't make sense. That is where I stand. However, your view of the Bible I highly doubt.
Kurt,
That was a great comment you posted to the blog in the middle of the night! (in Open Theism and Doubt post)
First, we need to get this admin thingy fixed so you can cut and paste a direct blog.
Second, I’ve re-read Yancey’s post you sent, and several other of the articles he wrote, I think he’s great.
Third, my understanding of your position may be all wrong, and I’m sorry if that’s true. We both agree that we are happy I’m not God, I don’t want that job with what little I know.
I see you focusing on Yancey’s doubts more than the results of what he’s found out or the end of his doubting search. The same is true with C.S. L., he had lots of doubts during his 15 years as an atheist, to me it’s not his doubts that are important but the place those doubts led him into the man he became.
Fourth, I’ve felt that you were more interested in converting me to your doubts (most of which I’ve worked through for myself – but that are many things I don’t understand and cannot explain. It’s not the things that I don’t understand that give me pause, it’s the ones that I do understand) than you were in really and honestly trying to understand what I believe and how I came to that conclusion. I’ve had the feeling that you only attack whatever position I’ve taken. Again, if I’ve taken that all wrong, then I’m sorry.
Finally, Northminster Presbyterian Church, where we attend, has a ten-week Alpha Course on Wednesday evenings 6-7.30 starting September 14. The purpose of the course is to explore the fundamentals of the Christian faith where, “Everyone should have the chance to explore the Christian faith, ask questions and share their point of view.”
It’s free, and we’d love to have you come and share your doubts as you are searching for the meaning of life.
You can listen to the video about Alpha her:http://alphausa.org/
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