For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received — that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day according to the scriptures,
(1Co 15:3-4 NET)
Thursday, March 24, 2016
Easter - He is Risen Indeed!
Since it's Easter week these verses seemed in order:
For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received — that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day according to the scriptures,
(1Co 15:3-4 NET)
For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received — that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day according to the scriptures,
(1Co 15:3-4 NET)
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6 comments:
Just a brief summarization. I listened to Andy Stanley's sermon 'unbelievably believable that you requested I watch. I have to say that I have heard slightly variations of sermons like this my whole life, so it is nothing new. Just the same ole same ole. Now if I had never decided to read the Bible for myself and instead only listened to preachers and depend on their use of selective readings, and if I had never asked questions about some problems/contradictions with the Bible, with Theology, and read viewpoints on textual criticism and kept my head in the sand- I would still believe it today. I am not dismissing the meaning of it all, I think the Bible and its message of finding meaning and grappling with deeper moral issues in life is valuable. But I also understand that human beings have a tendency to mess things up a bit, so I have to be a bit cautious when excepting dogmatic beliefs passed down from authority figures particularly when understanding that a human tendency is to gain power, money and control.
I don't much care for Andy Stanley's style so much, he reminds me of someone who should probably hawk Sham-Wows on late night TV or sell used cars instead of telling me what the Bible says. I have grown up listening to his dad Charles though, and find his style a bit more palatable for my taste. Andy uses too much hype and seems as if he is trying too hard to get even himself to believe what he is saying. He has said some things in sermons recently that are getting him in hot water if he wants to remain within what is considered Orthodoxy. Not that I disagree with him on that- but he needs to hold to some firm boundaries on fundamental issues, otherwise it is just Andy Stanley's opinion and not God's.
He overuses words salesmen use too much- 'amazing, fantastic and incredible are words he uses way too often- and for things that aren't really amazing, fantastic or incredible. His style of preaching is geared toward the kindergarten aged. Sad that preachers have to speak down to their adult congregation to get their message across.
One of the first things he said in the beginning of his sermon was he didn't want to use the Bible to prove the resurrection story- and then goes on to use the Bible to do it! Eyewitness accounts are from the Bible! He said, "we do not believe Jesus rose from the dead because the Bible tells us so.' Then goes on to use the Bible.
One big exaggeration was around the 8:45 minute mark when he mangled the words of John the Baptist. Andy says he said, 'get ready God is getting ready to do something unusual and fantastic! Repent of your sin so that when God does this thing you will recognize it as a God thing!' John was preaching repentance to prepare for the end of the world. 'And the crowd went wild!' he says regarding John the Baptist preparing the way. Unless I missed this, I would like to see it in the Gospels.
I'll comment on the rest later, about the fallacy that the disciples would not have allowed embarrassing accounts of them in Scripture and that it takes 80 years for fables to arise, or about the guards at the tomb and that Jesus enemies had more confidence in him raising from the dead than his disciples.
Thanks for the comment! We agree on a lot of things, Andy Stanley’s style is different from his dad’s, and probably not much of an improvement. As I understand him he started as a youth pastor and hasn’t made a complete transition into the adult world.
Yeah, I too noticed his comment about not using the Bible to prove the resurrection story … by the time he was done I assumed he meant that he was relying on the actions of the participants for resurrection confirmation rather than just a statement of that’s what happened. He’s probably like us, if he had it to do over he may have used different words.
I’m with you again, I’ve never heard John the Baptist’s message put just like that, but … when you stop and think about it, he certainly was unusual (no question there), his message was different and unusual (no question there), and in our current vernacular it was fantastic – God’s Son is coming. “Wild” is not the word either you or I might use – but all the people were coming to the wilderness to see him – to hear his message and to be baptized.
I’m looking forward to the balance of your impressions.
Andy Stanley is using standard arguments apologists use over and over again, and they seem convincing unless you stop to think about them and do research to see if they are good reasons. One thing I can't stand is when preachers sound so confident and begin using terms that indicate that, no one, nowhere would ever do this or not do this that or the other if they did or didn't believe something.
An example of this is the authors of the Bible would not include any embarrassing events about Peter, for example. He is playing on the assumption that no one would want anything embarrassing written about them if it was not true, but because there were embarrassing events recorded it must have happened that way. Including embarrassing details can mean the storyteller is exaggerating (just like Andy Stanley) in an attempt to gain more credibility by using human frailties like everyone else, or by building tension in a plot to make it more interesting. But in this case with Peter, who was illiterate and passed on stories to Luke who actually wrote it down- (if he was the one who actually did) would not have had access to the final copy 30-40 years later- and wasn't even alive by then. The fact that the gospels were written much later than the lifetimes of the disciples, would not prove embarrassing testimony proves everything is true. It might not even be intentional.
Stanley says, it takes 80 years for fables to arise. Well, it takes as long/ or as short as the person spreading information. If they are careless like Stanley, then they can arise the immediately. Think of the congregation and internet audience who just takes his word for it and does no more research- they pass on what they heard and if enough people hear it, it becomes urban legend. Scholars- even evangelicals - when pushed in a corner admit that their is significant embellishment in the gospels.
He says at 22 minute mark that Jesus enemies had more confidence in Jesus than the disciples did, which is why they had guards placed at the tomb so no one would steal the body. This was also a later addition, in Matthew and most scholars- even credible evangelicals understand this to be a forgery. I can give you the links to this if you want to read up on it. But even so- just take it at face value for the sake of it- what difference does it make? The Jews who wanted guards was not because they thought Jesus would rise from the dead, they didn't want the body stolen so the disciples could proclaim that he was risen- even if he had not been. I do find it kind of ironic that the enemies of Jesus knew about the possibility that his followers said he would rise from the grave, but his followers did not expect it. Particularly Peter, since he supposedly was a witness to Jesus transfiguration that seemed to make an impact on him- not to mention witnessing all of the miracles of Jesus.
Much more could be said, but this sermon was not convincing in the least. It is if you are just hoping for a free ticket to Heaven after you die, but wishful thinking does not give me confidence to actually follow Christ's commandments that are required to be his disciple, and I don't think you do either, nor do any so called Christians I know. There are good nuggets of truth in there, but as a belief system that we have today called 'Orthodox Christianity' that was hammered out in 325 AD by power hungry Church leaders, it needs an overhaul. The constant evolution and compromising that I have seen the Church go through with regard to theological issues along with the lack of faith and willingness to actually live in accordance with the teachings of Jesus-the difficult teachings, not just the easy ones as good as some are, along with the lack of faith in healing- shows me that what he have now is just a shell game- at least with the doctrine we have today- that is not handed to us by God- but by councils and clergy.
Nuff said for now. I cant wait to tackle your other post about Jesus not being a failed prophet.
Wow, you were really up late and in a bad mood!
It's amazing to me, maybe not amazing but more amuzing, well maybe not amuzing but more intriguing, how two people can go to the same lake and see it differently. One person takes their boat, goes water skiing, fishes, and swims. The other person, going to the same lake, stays away from the water, the shore line is not the same as last time, the wind might start to blow, and people drown in water.
You need a Bible to read.
Your statement "I do find it kind of ironic that the enemies of Jesus knew about the possibility that his followers said he would rise from the grave, but his followers did not expect it. Particularly Peter, since he supposedly was a witness to Jesus transfiguration that seemed to make an impact on him- not to mention witnessing all of the miracles of Jesus." Shows a sharp lack of Bible knowledge.
Consider these verses:
"From that time Jesus began telling his followers that he must go to Jerusalem. He explained that the older Jewish leaders, the leading priests, and the teachers of the law would make him suffer many things. And he told his followers that he must be killed. Then, on the third day, he would be raised from death. Peter took Jesus away from the other followers to talk to him alone. He began to criticize him. He said, 'God save you from those sufferings, Lord! That will never happen to you!'" (Mat 16:21-22 ERV)
The balance of your conversation is your usual line, finding things to hide behind - you don't want to be a Christian because other people are not doing what YOU think they should.
I'll wait for your next post to see if you have anything new to contribute.
Don't wait until the middle of the night (or morning), you may feel better when you post.
Just a parting shot, good people don't go to heaven - only forgiven ones do! And remember, I didn't write the book, I just believe it!
Ray,
Wow, you were really up late and in a bad mood!
Yes I was up way too late- but no I wasn't in a bad mood. Disagreement
doesn't mean angry.
You need a Bible to read.
I have plenty. I could also suggest the same to you, but since I know you
already do- may I suggest you begin reading it with an open view this time
instead of using the tunnel vision lens you are currently using. For some
reason you firmly believe you cannot be wrong about anything within your
systematic theological approach- and seem unable to learn anything new or
change your mind on anything you currently believe and have been taught.
My parents are the same way. You have Ray's view of the Bible and its the
only right view. Even though there are so many problems with it.
Regarding the subject above - about the disciples being ignorant about
Jesus supposed resurrection before the crucifixion, during and after it-
I am wondering if you watched the sermon we are talking about. Around the
19 minute mark he goes through the fact that the disciples were scared and
denied Jesus after his arrest and didn't stick around after the
crucifixion. If they believed he would be resurrected then why so scared
and cowardly?
OK, here is where I get to the point in the Bible about the fact the
disciples didn't expect his resurrection. Its in this sermon for one, but
its also in the Bible and just about every commentary and apologetic book
I have, so it not just my opinion or interpretation. Look up Mark (written
before the other Gospels) 9:10 where the disciples didn't know what Jesus
meant when he talked about rising from the dead after 3 days. Then look at
Mark 9:30-32 a few verses later, they did not understand again what he
meant. All the Bible commentaries concur that he did not understand. I
have evangelical Bibles too- not ones from Satan, just in case you were
suspicious.
Apparently the Jews got word of Jesus prediction, and understood it - but
his disciples didn't.
The balance of your conversation is your usual line, finding things to hide behind - you don't want to be a Christian because other people are not doing what YOU think they should.
I admit I do hide behind the truth- you got me there.
Your accusation about me not wanting to be a Christian (your definition)
because other people are not doing what I think they should is only
partly correct. I think Christians who dismiss the commandments of Jesus
and believe they only have to say, Lord Lord, as a license to sin and
still go to Heaven are wrong.
Why wouldn't I want to be a Christian as you define it? If I can get saved
and still sin all I want and don't have to do anything different than
what I do now- tell me WHY DO YOU THINK I DONT WANT TO BE A CHRISTIAN?
Only 3:24 AM this time. keeping up with this blog is keeping me up to late-
but I enjoy it. By the way- didn't have time to proof read
Kurt,
A couple of comments here and then I’ll start a new thread on being a Christian (my definition).
We agree:
“Apparently the Jews got word of Jesus prediction, and understood it - but his disciples didn't.”
And the next event is the amazing part. When no one could find a body and when Jesus appeared to them alive and ate with them, they got it! It was the resurrection that made the difference in their lives and it’s what makes the difference in our lives. Andy does a great job of pointing that out in the video. A perfect life, an undeserving death, and a bodily resurrection, all done free for humanity, is what makes Christianity.
On a different note, you say:
“ For some reason you firmly believe you cannot be wrong about anything within your
systematic theological approach- and seem unable to learn anything new or change your mind on anything you currently believe and have been taught. My parents are the same way. You have Ray's view of the Bible and its the only right view. Even though there are so many problems with it.”
I find it interesting that you feel I am unable to learn anything new. In our weekly Sunday morning Sunday School we spend an hour studying the Gospel of Luke. Our teachers are amazing and we learn about Jesus’ life and our lives from Luke.
Next is the sermon each week, they are preaching from a 30-week series on living the Christian life.
That is followed by the Wednesday night class which is a topical study on living our Christian life.
The next day is the Iron Men’s Power Lunch each Thursday where we discuss living the Christian life.
And in the Friday evening home group we are studying Isaiah. King Ahaz did not trust God in his daily life so when the crisis of Jerusalem being attacked came he went to Egypt for help and did not trust God. His son Hezekiah however did trust God and worshiped him in his daily life so when Jerusalem was about to be attacked he went to God and God spared Jerusalem.
By my count that’s five hours each week in formal study, learning and training about being a Christian and living the Christian life. Add my personal time in Bible study and I’d plead guilty to learning new things.
It is true however, I’m not learning new ways to be Jesus jeering or Bible bashing. I’m with Joshua:
"But maybe you don't want to serve the LORD. You must choose for yourselves today. Today you must decide who you will serve. … You must choose for yourselves. But as for me and my family, we will serve the LORD." (Jos 24:15 ERV)
I don’t have a divided loyalty:
If you need wisdom, ask our generous God, and He will give it to you. He will not rebuke you for asking. But when you ask Him, be sure that your faith is in God alone. Do not waver, for a person with divided loyalty is as unsettled as a wave of the sea that is blown and tossed by the wind. Such people should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. Their loyalty is divided between God and the world, and they are unstable in everything they do. (Jas 1:5-8 NLT)
Yes, I’m learning! I’m learning how to be more like God and not how to get away from him!
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