Assumptions Matter

Kurt,

Over the years, we’ve talked long and hard about what is true, and what is not true about the meaning of life. Most of our discussion has center on the Jesus, Paul, and the Bible. We both read the same verses but come to very different conclusions. It’s like people looking and describing the Golden Gate bridge (in the earlier post).

I want to illustrate what I feel is our lack of communication with the following illustrations.

If I write, “10” and ask how many coins that represents some will say ten, and some will say two, and some will say sixteen and they can all be right.

If I write, “11” and ask the same question some will say eleven and some will say three, and they both can be right.

If I write, “14” and ask the same question some will say fourteen and some will say twenty, and they both can be right.

If I write, “10+4” and ask for the answer some will say fourteen and some will say two, and they both can be right.

The point is, no one can agree on the ‘right’ answer until they agree on their assumptions.

We usually assume people use a decimal system for numbers. But computer programmers work in both binary (base 2) and hexadecimal (base 16).

Decimal	Binary	Hexadecimal
0	0000	0
1	0001	1
2	0010	2
3	0011	3
4	0100	4
5	0101	5
6	0110	6
7	0111	7
8	1000	8
9	1001	9
10	1010	A
11	1011	B
12	1100	C
13	1101	D
14	1110	E
15	1111	F
16	00010000	10

This principle applies to many areas of life, but none so important as the assumptions we make about Jesus and the Bible.

The difference you and I have Kurt, is we don’t agree on the assumptions we bring to the Bible. Until we can agree on those assumptions, then we will not be able to agree on our understanding and application of what the Bible says.

If you will allow me to cherry pick a verse – (so I don’t have to quote the whole Bible) I will give you a basis for my understanding:

2Pe 1:16-21 NLT  For we were not making up clever stories when we told you about the powerful coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We saw His majestic splendor with our own eyes  (17)  when He received honor and glory from God the Father. The voice from the majestic glory of God said to Him, "This is my dearly loved Son, who brings me great joy."[Jesus is the Son of God]  (18)  We ourselves heard that voice from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. 

(19)  Because of that experience, we have even greater confidence in the message proclaimed by the [Old Testament] prophets. You must pay close attention to what they wrote, for their words are like a lamp shining in a dark place—until the Day dawns, and Christ the Morning Star shines in your hearts. 

(20)  Above all, you must realize that no prophecy in Scripture ever came from the prophet's own understanding,  (21)  or from human initiative. No, those prophets were moved by the Holy Spirit, and they spoke from God.

I assume from those verses, and a lot of others, and from the extra-biblical historical records, and from my own personal experience, that the Bible is reliable and is for us the word of God.

I don’t think we have a problem of agreeing that there is a God. And we can agree with Paul:

Rom 1:20 NLT  For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see His invisible qualities—His eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

The problem we seem to be having is what do we do about/with the God that created us.

I assume that God has given us his word to help us be conformed to the image of his son, and that his word is:

Heb 4:12 NLT  For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires.

Because of my understanding, I like Joshua, have decided, “That for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” And I’m like Peter:

Luk 9:20 NLT  Then He asked them, "But who do you say I am?" Peter replied, "You [Jesus]are the Messiah sent from God!"

Luk 9:20 ESV  Then he said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” And Peter answered, “The Christ of God.”

Also, I try to learn from people that have made the same decisions I have made, paid the price that I want to pay, and that will continue helping me to become conformed into the image of Christ.

Perhaps we should spend more time on our assumptions, what we bring to the Bible, and less time discussing conclusions and meanings when they are not derived using the same assumptions.

If we don't agree on the facts, we'll never agree on the conclusions.

Jesus in the Old Testament

Kurt,

Your last two text messages are intriguing:

I have a feeling you don't apply this 'bridge' and 'key' and 'words don't always mean what they say' principle in any verse you agree with. It is always verses with teaching you don't like that you apply this to.

You are cherry picking and you don't realize it! What you love and what tickles your ears - you take as 'thus sayeth the Lord' what you don't like you use anything to wiggle out of the plain meaning.

First, you didn’t respond to the application of your feeling that words mean what they say to the Adam and Eve illustration in “Words don’t always mean what they say”. You didn’t acknowledge the principal is valid and applies to context. Therefore, I assume that in the Adam and Eve illustration you’d agree that the words don’t convey the meaning of the story. So, yes, I do apply that principle and the ‘bridge’ principle and the ‘Key’ principle to all the scripture as they apply to each case.

Second, this phrase, “You are cherry picking and you don't realize it!” is really interesting because that is exactly what I thought you were/are doing and you thought that is what I was doing. I don’t really know where we passed each other on that idea.

I thought/think I consider the whole council of God, and not just a few key ‘cherry picked’ verses. As you bring up verses that are a problem for you I try to expand our conversations to other verses that apply or illustrate a concept. Since I can’t quote the whole Bible at a time I do select verses that apply. If the selection of applicable verses means cherry picking to you, then I’m guilty.

On the other hand, when you only use a few verses, over and over and over to make the same point again and again that seems like cherry picking to me. You consistently talk about Jesus’ errors, and never his miracles, love for people, his creation of the world, his death and resurrection, his born-again ideas, his mercy, that this is his world – the one he created, and on and on and on. Even if you think he made a mistake, which I don’t, then some of the other statements he made about love and the abundant life might apply. In our human relations with each other, we don’t condemn people to ‘nothing’ because they made a mistake. I assume that is what you’ve done with Jesus based on your text:

No your not left with Hinduism or Buddhism. You are left with the God of the Old Testament- and that works for me.

There is nothing pointing to Jesus in the OT. But a lot of imaginative quote mining of it trying to make it seem as if there was.

That idea seems harsh to me, and I don’t accept it as true (in my world, using the application of Key, Bridge, and Words and the whole council of God).

Jesus didn’t think your analysis of the OT is true:

Luk 24:25-27 NLT  Then Jesus said to them, "You foolish people! You find it so hard to believe all that the prophets wrote in the Scriptures.  (26)  Wasn't it clearly predicted that the Messiah would have to suffer all these things before entering His glory?"  (27)  Then Jesus took them through the writings of Moses and all the prophets, explaining from all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

Luk 24:44-49 NLT  Then He said, "When I was with you before, I told you that everything written about Me in the law of Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms must be fulfilled."  (45)  Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures.  (46)  And He said, "Yes, it was written long ago that the Messiah would suffer and die and rise from the dead on the third day.  (47)  It was also written that this message would be proclaimed in the authority of His name to all the nations, beginning in Jerusalem: 'There is forgiveness of sins for all who repent.'  (48)  You are witnesses of all these things.  (49)  "And now I will send the Holy Spirit, just as My Father promised. But stay here in the city until the Holy Spirit comes and fills you with power from heaven."

There you have it in plain English, using your ideas and terms, there is no wiggle room, Jesus said it – the Old Testament points to Messiah. You don’t need to do a lot of ‘quote mining’, just read what he said.

To not seem like I’m cherry picking, here is another occasion when Jesus used the Old Testament to talk about himself:

Joh 3:14-15 NLT  And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,  (15)  so that everyone who believes in Him will have eternal life.

I hope I’m not guilty of your assessment of, “what you don’t like you use anything to wiggle out of the plain meaning.” And I hope that you won’t use something to wiggle out of the plain meaning.

I hope that you will come back and acknowledge that the Old Testament does have some references to Jesus and that one does not have to do “a lot of imaginative quote mining of it trying to make it seem as if there was”

Words Don't Always Mean What They Say - Face Value

In a recent post, I asked if there was any way you could understand Jesus’s teachings as right and not ‘wrong’, any way at all.

Your response was:

If you can't read him at face value then you are putting your words in his mouth. Then it is the words of Ray

If someone really wants to find a way to explain away an obvious mistake - then you can certainly twist the meaning of their words to make it say whatever you want …

I posted the KEY definitions as an effort to show how words don’t always mean exactly what they say.

I submit the following verses as a case in point:

Gen 3:1-7 NLT  The serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild animals the LORD God had made. One day he asked the woman, "Did God really say you must not eat the fruit from any of the trees in the garden?" 

(2)  "Of course we may eat fruit from the trees in the garden," the woman replied.  (3)  "It's only the fruit from the tree in the middle of the garden that we are not allowed to eat. God said, 'You must not eat it or even touch it; if you do, you will die.'" 

(4)  "You won't die!" the serpent replied to the woman.  (5)  "God knows that your eyes will be opened as soon as you eat it, and you will be like God, knowing both good and evil." 

(6)  The woman was convinced. She saw that the tree was beautiful and its fruit looked delicious, and she wanted the wisdom it would give her. So she took some of the fruit and ate it. Then she gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it, too. 

(7)  At that moment their eyes were opened, and they suddenly felt shame at their nakedness. So they sewed fig leaves together to cover themselves.

Looking at those verses on the surface, face value, God said they would die. Satan said they would not die. They ate and didn’t die. Therefore, on face value, God was wrong and Satan was correct. Therefore, if we are looking for truth, we should follow Satan.

I submit to you that no Christian writer will understand for a moment that we should follow Satan rather than God. No one takes these words at face value – rather they keep them in context and realize that Adam and Eve really did die that day.

And, just for the record, I’m always looking for ways to understand that Jesus is right, if I don’t understand him (yet) I don’t excuse myself from responsibility by saying Jesus is wrong. Never!

Golden Gate Bridge

The Golden Gate bridge is a good illustration of our Christian life is constructed and used. I've included some pictures of the Golden Gate bridge to illustrate a point.

These are different perspectives on the same object. Everyone recognizes them as pictures of the Golden Gate bridge. No one would say one of the pictures is 'wrong' or 'false'

You commented some time back that you were disappointed that all of the Bible commentators didn't agree, or that they didn't say the same thing the same way. I think Bible commentators are Golden Gate photographers, each one emphasises a different view of the subject at a point in time.

To some, the bridge is something to drive on. To some, the bridge is something to paint and repair. To some, it's an object to photograph. And to some, it's all of these things on the same day, but for others, it takes on a different meaning depending on where they are in their life cycle.

Everyone agrees there is the Golden Gate bridge, but not everyone agrees that there is just one way to 'see' it.

The same is true of Jesus being the Son of God. At any point in time, we may see him differently from a different angle and stress different qualities bassed on where we are in our Christian life cycle, but we still recognize him as the Son of God.

No illustration is perfect, and they all can be pressed beyond their usefullness, I hopes this helps make a point and gives us freedom of expression about our faith in Jesus as Son of God and Saviour.

Everyone agrees that there is a Golden Gate bridge, they agree on where it is, and it's demensions. It is a suspension bridge that links the northern tip of the San Francisco Peninsula to Marin County Caliorina and that it was finished in 1937. The American Society of Civil Engineers have declared it one of the wonders of the modern world.

Beyond the basic facts the bridge can be looked at and described many different ways. None of the differences are 'wrong', they just emphasis different facets of the same bridge. To some it's a road.

To some it's a thing of bueaty.

To others it may be bueatiful, but it also is a thing to be maintained, it's a work place,

This bridge is like our Christian faith - we have unity in the basics and in everything else there is liberty. 

Spirituality of Imperfection

Kurt,

The theme of your text messages have been that Jesus and Paul were false prophets. For me, there are several logical problems with you wanting them to be wrong. Perhaps I can share them some time.

I posted my last post in response to your ‘false prophet claims’ and followed up with one of my favorite verses that says, “As for me and my house I’ll serve the Lord.”

Somehow (and I don’t understand why) your response logic shifted from what Jesus and Paul said to how I life my Christian life. In response to my blog and text, you sent this text:

Unless you are willing to call upon the elders of the church and be anointed with oil and prayer - instead of running to doctors who probably don't even believe the Bible- then I won't be convinced of your theological views- because you don't believe them yourself.

You are still the man in the crowd- shouting how much you believe - but still won't get in the wheelbarrow.

This 'it's a privilege, not a command' means nothing if you don't have the faith to take him up on it. In fact it is most likely insulting to God.

I don't expect this of someone who has doubts ,but I do expect it from someone who claims to be so certain of the Bible, and from someone who would never call him wrong.

This week during our weekly study, I had the privilege to sit with 18 other men and study Luke 1.57-80. We are going through the book of Luke leading up to Christ’s birth. We were impressed how the Levites were divided into 24 groups back in Chronicles and how that instruction was still being followed 4-500 years later. Zachariah was an old man (80+/-) and as a priest he only got to serve the burning of the incense once in his lifetime.

God had not spoken to Israel from the Holy of Holies for over 400 years, but this day on Zachariah’s duty, Gabriel appeared! It really scared Zachariah, and naturally so!

Gabriel told Zachariah that his prayers for the nation of Israel, his prayer that a Messiah might come, were answered this day. The answer would start by Zachariah (in his old age, and with his wife being beyond the time to have children) having a son and his name would be John.

Zachariah, scared as he was, says, “Dude, how do I know that what you are telling me is true?” Paul’s observation was true here:

1Co 1:22-23 ESV  For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,  (23)  but we preach Christ crucified, …

Zachariah was listing to an angel of God and he wanted a sign some evidence, as if the word from God was not enough!

After Gabriel told him just a part of his resume, he made Zachariah mute for 9 months. It’s worth noting that when Gabriel visited Mary three months later, Mary did not question him, she said, “Let it me as you have spoken.”

The point of this is, the truth of God’s word does not rest on the lives of his followers. To say that another way, those 18 men I was with love God because of what God has done, not because of what the other men have done. The oldest man of the group is near 90 and the youngest is in his 30s, we all look at and love God because of who God is, not because of who someone in the group is (or isn’t).

Christ died for us as sinners, and he does not require perfection from his followers!

Rom 5:6 ERV  Christ died for us when we were unable to help ourselves. We were living against God, but at just the right time Christ died for us.

Rom 5:8 ERV  But Christ died for us while we were still sinners, and by this God showed how much he loves us.

If I waited to find a church where everyone was perfect (where everyone did what I thought they should do – I think that is what you are asking) then I could not join because I would make it less than perfect.

1Jn 1:7-9 ERV  We should live in the light, where God is. If we live in the light, we have fellowship with each other, and the blood sacrifice of Jesus, God's Son, washes away every sin and makes us clean.  (8)  If we say that we have no sin, we are fooling ourselves, and the truth is not in us.  (9)  But if we confess our sins, God will forgive us. We can trust God to do this. He always does what is right. He will make us clean from all the wrong things we have done.

But, since I’m not perfect and since I’m accepted by God, even when I’m not perfect, then I can accept those other 18 men and know that they are not perfect. We are all, together, working on the spirituality of our imperfection.

To be imperfect is to be human, if we were perfect then we’d be God.

When you die, and God asks why you didn’t believe his Son, will you reply, “I didn’t believe you because Ray went to the doctor”?

What I don’t understand is this: Since Jesus’ death in our place is the best deal on earth, why you are not looking for the ways to understand that it’s true rather than biting the hand that is feeding you (us)?

Jesus and Paul were not false prophets

This is written in response to the claim that Jesus and Paul were wrong about their understanding of when Jesus was coming back, and therefore they were false prophets.

It’s a quick response, not a deep response.

The idea that Jesus, Paul, and other New Testament individuals were false prophets just does not add up for me. It does not square with the dedication and devotion of the people closest to him and them.

Jesus came and taught, he picked 12 men, and they followed him to their death. They would not do that for a false prophet. They lived with him, heard him teach and preach and they all concluded that he was without sin.

Heb 4:15  For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.

2Co 5:21  God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Pe 2:21  To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

1Pe 2:22  "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth."

1Jn 3:4  Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

1Jn 3:5  But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.

2Pe 1:16-21 NIV  We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.  (17)  For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." 

(18)  We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.  (19)  And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.  (20)  Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation.  (21)  For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

We have the testimony of the men that lived with him, men that committed their lives to him, men that loved him, these men did not call him wrong or false.

Yes, the first-generation believers thought/hoped Jesus would return in their lifetime – they were not wrong to think that. Every generation since Jesus left has hoped he’d return during their lifetime. I hope he’d return before you get through reading this blog!

Then, the next generation of believers, they did not call him wrong or a false prophet because he did not come during their lifetime. They registered no complaint or disbelief because Jesus didn’t return.

They all understood what Jesus said, and they didn’t call him wrong or false.

Jesus did teach about false prophets, but he was not one:

Mat 7:15-23 NIV  "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. (16)  By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? (17)  Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. (18)  A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. (19)  Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. (20)  Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

(21)  "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. (22)  Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' (23)  Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Mat 24:10-11 NIV  At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, (11)  and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

2Pe 2:1-9 NIV  But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.  (2)  Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 

(3)  In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. 

(4)  For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;  (5)  if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;  (6)  if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;  (7)  and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men  (8)  (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— (9)  if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.

1Jn 4:1-3 NIV  Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.  (2)  This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,  (3)  but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

Mat 24:24 NIV  For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.

Mar 13:22-23 NIV  For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible. (23)  So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

And on and on …

It just does not square with the ‘boots on the ground’ to say that Jesus was wrong or that believers were wrong when they thought Jesus would come during their life – I expect that myself.

Jesus taught this parable, teaching is all to be ready for his coming at any time:

Mat 25:1-13 NIV  "At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

(2)  Five of them were foolish and five were wise. (3)  The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. (4)  The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps.

(5)  The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep. (6)  "At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!' (7)  "Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps.

(8)  The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.' (9)  "'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'

(10)  "But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

(11)  "Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!' (12)  "But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.' (13)  "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

I’ll never call him false or wrong! I’m not smarter than those that heard him speak, listened to his teaching, dedicated their lives, and called him sinless and Lord!